Wednesday, May 24, 2006

innocents


http://noblechild.com/premieHands.jpg


The above photo is one which reminds me of our youngest. I bought her the print when she was younger and if I didn’t know better, would have said it was her at birth. She was born at one day shy of six months after a difficult pregnancy. She weighed two pounds - nine ounces and was fourteen inches long.

Disgust was the most apparent feeling I could claim as my husband related this event to me on Monday morning past. In all honesty, I was taken back to nearly 14 years ago when I was five months pregnant with the little one who is nearly a replica to the baby above.

I am sickened by the events in the aforementioned article. The baby was described as being macerated:

macerated - Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 : Macerate \Mac"er*ate\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Macerated; p. pr. & vb. n. Macerating.] [L. maceratus, p. p. of macerate to make soft, weaken, enervate; cf. Gr. ? to knead.] 1. To make lean; to cause to waste away. [Obs. or R.] --Harvey. [1913 Webster] 2. To subdue the appetites of by poor and scanty diet; to mortify. --Baker. [1913 Webster] 3. To soften by steeping in a liquid, with or without heat; to wear away or separate the parts of by steeping; as, to macerate animal or vegetable fiber. [1913 Webster]

At one time I was “pro-choice” until the realization those words had nothing to do with what shoes to wear with what dress, or what color to paint the kitchen. The words had NO THING to do with whether or not I should super-size my value meal. The words “pro-choice” mean the destruction of an individual, an innocent - a being who cannot defend his or herself.

I’ll never forget the words of my husband after his first visit with her, as he knelt by my bedside shaking, “Babe, I’ve thrown back bigger fish than that!” What a guy…

When our baby was in kindergarten, they were making beanbag babies and had to bring the exact pounds in beans or rice to fill a standard size cotton cloth doll that had been sewn together by the mothers - they colored the faces and decorated the dolls - she was nearly in tears when she filled her doll up with her beans and they filled a section in the doll from about the midrift down into the legs. There was one child who weighed over ten pounds and couldn’t fit all his beans into the doll!

Is she special because she made it into the world? Not any more special than any fetus or embryo that makes it. Well, unless you figure in the cost of her making it: $260,000+! Thank God for medical insurance. Thank God for favor. Thank God for Evan, our warrior who made it. Thank God!

Proverbs 6:16-19 (kjv) states:

6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, [emphasis mine]

6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

143 comments:

nanc said...

what happened?

the merry widow said...

Oh Nanc, PTL your daughter has prospered! The article didn't come up, but that is alright, it was possibly the Lord graciously protecting me. I was told it would be very difficult to get pregnant, yet G*D blessed me with 2 wonderful, beautiful children! I tend to feel the rejection of your child is spitting in G*D's face, hurts my heart. I think it is proof that the Evil One is rampant in our country!
What a precious photo, tell your daughter that good things come in small packages, diamonds, rubies, sapphires, pearls...

tmw

Warren said...

My fault, I'll take care of it!

nanc said...

thank you warren.

tmw - i was not made to have children either and all three were quite difficult, but definitely worth it.

MissingLink said...

Such a tiny little thing!!
This like a miracle.

How old is she now?

nanc said...

ours is nearly 14, and i believe the baby in the photo would be a couple of years younger.

when i first saw this photo, i'd thought the photographer had hijacked a photo of my baby due to the resemblance.

not to worry, linkster - our evan never had a problem. except they could not keep her straight in the incubator as she wanted to spin around on her belly! she was strong and each day i would go to the nursery, i'd open the door of the incubator and whisper in, "evan, it's your mom..." she'd lift her tiny head and look at me.

this post is not so much about her as it is the taking of a "viable" life. which, btw i believe begins at conception.

FLORIAN said...

I have no idea how a person can honestly say that life doesn't begin at conception. Abortion sickens me to no end. I can only smile when the idiot pro-choicer's claim that it's a "fetus" or a "blob" and not a human. With that rationale we might as well consider all human life to be worthless. Yet, these same morons will march up and down the streets demanding the release of a convicted murderer from death row.

nanc said...

flo - or they'll wrap themselves in styrofoam and cellophane to protest your eating meat!

Mad Zionist said...

I am outraged by that story, nanc. Mrs. Z is pregnant now, as you know, and all we pray for is a healthy baby. The thought that life would be snuffed out at this abortion clinic so casually is an abomination to God and mankind. The parties involved in this murder are subhuman.

nanc said...

what i don't get, madze, is how on earth could the nurse (i assume) have told her she was six weeks when the sonagram obviously showed differently? one day, six months - it doesn't matter. the thought that the baby was the same age as mine born healthy blows my mind.

there are plenty of people out there who would have moved heaven and earth to have a baby and cannot.

life has become disposable in the last 30 years. i fear it will not go so well for some.

Mad Zionist said...

There are a lot of questions that need answering, nanc. I don't believe for a minute that this woman didn't know how old her baby was, I don't believe for a minute the nurse made an innocent mistake, and I don't believe for a minute the Doctor was not party to this murder.

It smells to me like a 38th week abortion for birth control, and the culprits are trying to cover it up as some kind of a mix up now that they got caught.

Sum. I hope they all go to jail, the mother included.

the merry widow said...

Well, remember back in the '60s it became more common the refer to children as "kids", what is a kid? A baby goat, an animal, usually in the Bible it's a reference to those who are rejected by G*D! So we start calling our children rejected animals, then we start rejecting them out of the womb! My Mother never allowed me to be called a kid, even as a joke. Now if someone asks how my kids are, I just say I don't have baby goats, the person looks surprised because they have swallowed the societal "norm" without thought. When they think about it, they realize what they just said! As Rush says,"Words mean things!" I agree.

tmw
Good morning and G*D bless!

nanc said...

so do i madze, but ultimately we answer to our maker - the whole lot of them will suffer one day.

and may they all suffer in their minds until then.

nanc said...

tmw - i'm guilty of calling mine "kids" at times. you're right, a word means something.

although innovative as your mother was in this area - and bless her - this is not something that's going to change anytime soon.

the merry widow said...

Nanc- My Mom couldn't have children, she would get pregnant but spontaneously abort, so I was adopted. This touches me at several levels!

tmw

Lawman said...

Abortion = murder

I don't care what the Liberal idiots say. "Pro-choice" is nothing of the sort. It's legalized murder.

There is no way I could have terminated my own 3 children. My life is so much better because I have them.

the merry widow said...

AMEN!

tmw

cube said...

Your daughter sounds like a blessing to me.

Rightminded said...

Good post nanc!

Now tell me, you and all the other GOP supporters, of which, so far, I am one and always have been.

Will you vote for a intellectually and morally flawed pro-infanticide presidential candidate like Rudy, Pataki, McKane, or whomever.

I WON'T, BUT I WOULD, GIVEN THE CHANCE, SPIT ON THE GROUND AT THEIR FEET.

the merry widow said...

R.M.- I'm libertarian because of the sell out of our values! I wouldn't spit on the ground, but on thier feet! I respect Giuliani for the way he handled himself on 9/11, but don't condone murder of the innocents in front of me!

tmw
P.S. And don't try to feed me that"I personally don't approve of abortion, but..."!

MissingLink said...

this post is not so much about her as it is the taking of a "viable" life. which, btw i believe begins at conception.

I realize that Nanc.

Very few of the noisy, progressive lot defends their rights.

nanc said...

lawman - i'm reading a very good book called "God and caesar" by john eidsmoe that explains about these very issues. perhaps i'll elaborate at some future date. thanks for stopping by.

nanc said...

thank you, cube - but she's a blessing to all who know her! and, the best part of her is in love with the Lord.

nanc said...

thanks for the compliment, r.m. - i appreciate your opinion and have a high regard for you.

the questions you pose are difficult to answer. we may, again, be facing the lesser of two evils come the '08 elections. you know i would NEVER vote for hitlery, so there you have it.

nanc said...

linkster - they will defend the rights of a slimy borderline extinct snail over the life of a child. there is no method to their madness. it's all about justification of their "feelings" as screwed up as they are.

MissingLink said...

Nanc,
Just look at this:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=17127938%26method=full%26siteid=66633%26headline=scottish%2dabortion%2drate%2dhits%2d12%2d603-name_page.html

nanc said...

linkster - i cannot get that link to load.

Elmer's Brother said...

nanc

Don't you find it ironic that the Lord asks us to choose life and those who support abortion refuse to call it that?

I can't stand their hypocrisy over the very things that you mentioned...save a seal but kill an unborn child ARRRRggghhh!

Margaret Sanger promoted abortion as a form of regulating minority births, now it's done at a profit. Awful!

nanc said...

the only comfort in the entire ordeal of abortion is knowing each and every baby is at rest with the Lord. they will not know just what arseholes their parents really were! God forgive me.

nanc said...

p.s. elbro - if they called it life they would have to call it murder. they soften it with pretty words - pro choice my hind end!

Always On Watch said...

Nanc,
they will defend the rights of a slimy borderline extinct snail over the life of a child. there is no method to their madness.

I think the "method" is moral relativism, in which all of us are regulated to having no value more than that of as a one-celled organism. The proverbial slippery slope, and as a culture we've gone right down the slide.

tazzmax said...

Nanc, a great post and may G*d bless you and yours.

nanc said...

aow - these people would step around a rollie pollie bug to keep from harming it on their way to the killing fields of an abortion clinic.

as a matter of fact, maybe we who do not approve of this atrocity should start calling it what it is "BABY EXECUTION CHAMBER".

except in the case of troll abortions, sorry sir loin chops! these are not indicative of what i'm trying to point out.

nanc said...

thank you, tazz - good to see you out and about making the rounds.

tazzmax said...

Nanc, boy have I been busy lately with side jobs,...not much time for bloggin" with my friends,....hell, I'm supposed to be retired, but I can always use the "mad money".
I'm going to Ar. the first of July to visit my son,{for a couple weeks}, and we're gonna raise some hell,ha!
Maybe we'll run onto some more bears, huh?......I'll be ready.

nanc said...

guess who?
its Evan, nanc's daughter! now that i know my mother is talking about me behind my back.............and she tells us its not nice! funny how i dont remember it like that! anyways, thanx for the comments! you are so sweet!

nanc said...

oops - i made a mistake and it was just pointed out to me by evan - they made the dolls in first grade!

Elmer's Brother said...

I have gotten in discussions with pro-death people before and I always ask them two questions, for which I have never gotten an answer.

Are you for the 99.6% of abortions that are performed for the convenience of the mother?

Given that some pro-death people claim that it's a religious issue I also ask them this:

Was it right for the state of California to prosecute Scott Peterson for 2 murders instead of one?

Crickets....chirp...chirp

nanc said...

elbro - i say to them, "did you know you used to be a stem cell?"

nanc said...

let me know tazz - perhaps we could put on our rainbow get-ups and meet in eureka springs - we've rented a house just a few miles from there as i'm going to be working in springdale. we'll put some of that cheap beer you like on ice!

nanc said...

tazz - there's a manly man's man post below this one - GUNS - need i say more......

Warren said...

Like you, Nanc, ay one point in my life I was very much "pro-choice". I just felt that a woman shouldn't have to bear a child she didn't wish to carry.

I am very much ashamed of that now. How shallow is that thought! What of the child, who speaks for the most defenseless and innocent among us if not me.

That embarrassing child is the result of a line of choices that has resulted in the creation of a human being, its death a testament to selfishness.

MissingLink said...

Nanc,
You probably need to copy the link, paste it into a text editor and remove 'returns -split line' inserted when I pasted this very long address into blogger.
Then you can copy it again and paste it into your browser.
It happens when the address is very long.
Anyway, just some statistics on abortion rates in Scotland

nanc said...

it's like stepping into the light, warren.

i believe the time came for me when our son was conceived out of wedlock and i knew that i knew there was no way the pro-choice thought could ever cross my mind again.

he is brilliant and so Godly and had i even THOUGHT of robbing the world of his presence i'd be suffering to this day and hereafter.

i saw an interesting piece a few months ago that somebody published in a post at fpm and i wish i'd bookmarked it. it was a "what if" type situation of if in the last 30+ years no abortions were performed, how many future presidents, authors, scientists, doctors, lawyers, teachers, pilots, preachers, housewives, husbands, parents, poets, musicians, etc., would have been born.

truer words never spoken.

nanc said...

linkster, was it this:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=571012005

nanc said...

this link regarding the u.s. abortion rates is very disturbing:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmw
rhtml/ss5212a1.htm

Warren said...

Here's the text from Missinglinks, missinglink. :^)

SCOTTISH ABORTION RATE HITS 12,603
MSP's contraception plea
By Magnus Gardham

AN MSP yesterday called for contraceptive implants to be more widely available after abortions hit record levels.

Former health minister Susan Deacon said "thousands" could be prevented if more GPs offered "long-acting reversible contraceptives", or LARs.

The call came after figures yesterday showed 12,603 abortions were carried out in Scotland last year.

The NHS figures also showed a record number of schoolgirls having abortions.

Terminations for under-16s reached 341, a 35 per cent rise since 1999.

LARs include plastic implant strips which protect against pregnancy for up to three years.

A woman's fertility returns to normal two days after the strip is removed.

Few GPs, where most women go for contraception, offer the implants. Deacon said: "For many women LARs implants are safer, more reliable and more convenient.

"More doctors and nurses need to be trained to do this. It is not universally available. It is something the Executive need to look at."

The figures showed the poorest women were nearly twice as likely to have a termination as the wealthiest.

Around Scotland, women in Tayside were most likely to have a termination, followed by women in Lothian, Glasgow, Fife and Aberdeenshire.

Of the schoolgirl abortions, 67 were performed in Lothian, 54 in Glasgow, 37 in Tayside and 31 in Fife.

Scotland's Chief Medical Officer Dr Harry Burns admitted better sex education was needed.

He said: "It is disappointing there has been a rise in abortions for girls under 16.

"One of the key aims of Respect and Responsibility, Scotland's first national strategy to improve sexual health, is to reduce the rates of unintended pregnancies."

Archbishop of Glasgow Mario Conti said: "The figures reveal yet again that the current approach of greater availability of contraception, more explicit sex education and easier access to abortion, is a recipe for disaster.

"Each abortion represents the death of an unborn child and a personal tragedy for the mother and father involved."

Warren said...

Nice to meet you Evan,

You mom's a contrary you know.

LOL!

nanc said...

don't be telling her that, warren! besides - this was a special time as she was bugging me to see this post - she won't be back unless i say so!

i left you some info on a gun my husband found on your post.

nanc said...

i found this to be quite interesting as to abortions according to age and race in the u.s.:

http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/Abor
tionStatistics.htm

and, if you look at the age group and race - you will see we do not get smarter with maturity.

nanc said...

4,000 abortions are performed a day in the u.s.

i see entire towns dying.

Elmer's Brother said...

I see abortion doctors lining their pockets.

the merry widow said...

If you want to hear something disturbing, that follows that some people are not getting smarter with age! In a retirement community, far south of me. the STD rates are rising at an astronomical rate! The health dept. is going nuts.
Nanc- Enjoyed your daughter's comments, but I am puzzled, she made a comment about her husband? And you rag me about my daughter being courted? You sure feel into redneck customs fast woman!
Good morning all, G*D bless all with a beautiful day, I'm fanning smoke out of my face!

tmw

the merry widow said...

That's fell not feel! cheez whiz, I'm getting smoked through the a/c, how many brain cells are dying! Agh!

tmw

Always On Watch said...

LARs include plastic implant strips which protect against pregnancy for up to three years.

A woman's fertility returns to normal two days after the strip is removed.


I wonder about that. A woman's reproductive system can be very tricky.

Nanc,
4,000 abortions are performed a day in the u.s.

i see entire towns dying.


And by the hundreds!

the merry widow said...

IUD's cause spontaneous abortions! And can scar the uterus! What are they thinking? Are they? Are they trying to reduce fertility even further? IDIOTS!

tmw
Sorry, I'm on a tear! Like I said on an earlier comment, this hits me at several levels!

the merry widow said...

Nanc- Disregard redneck remarks, didn't realize you had reclaimed your name!

tmw

nanc said...

tmw - please go back and read that post - i was speaking that time, not my daughter. she hasn't even been kissed yet and says she'll beat up the boy who tries to even touch her hand! before she tosses him to her brother and father to finish him off. she's serious in the ways of chastity.

nanc said...

aow - not to be sickening, and the guys won't like this, but there are ways women can know they are ovulating and just abstain at those times.

FLORIAN said...

Uh Nanc....did we really need to know this little tidbit?

the merry widow said...

I gather you aren't married Florian? Valuable info for later on when you are! You just take your tempature, sheesh, men! Well, that is one way.

tmw

nanc said...

do not make me go into details, flo...

Brooke said...

OH, Lord, Nanc!

Six weeks or six months... What's the difference to a "pro-choice-er?"

My baby boy was born one month early, and although nowhere near as small as your little baby, the sight of him hooked up to all the wires and monitors was a harrowing, yet glorious example of such a little thing so willing to fight for life!

Your baby is a walking miracle!

That baby, had it not been poisoned, would surely have lived a full life.God help us.

Brooke said...

You know what they call folks who use the "family planning" method...Parents!

Kidding!

nanc said...

thank you brooke, but as i stated, she is NO more special than any baby ever born or never born. all are special. we were fortunate that she was a growing preemie - she didn't really need any special care or have any emergencies.

they did send her home on theophylline and the heart/apnea monitor. the heart monitor, when it would go off would alert the entire neighborhood! talk about loud. it only went off when she'd jiggle her way out of it and it would not detect a pulse. she'd sleep right through it.

once she went off the theophylline, she'd sleep ten to twelve hours straight through the night. there was never a baby with a better disposition.

we would stay awake all night staring at the monitor the first month waiting for it to go off~!

nanc said...

ALL YOU MEN WHO DON'T LIKE THIS GO TO THE GUN ARTICLE BELOW THIS!!!

SISSIES!

F.B. Jones said...

Guns make my happy HAPPY. Hi everybody. I am siting in the computer lab at MTSU. I just stopped by to say hi. I will start posting next week I hope. Love ya!!

nanc said...

we love and miss you, jacob!

Always On Watch said...

Warren,
I sent you an email. I need a bit of help from a guru.

JINGOIST said...

Very touching nanc. I really like your site.


Morgan

nanc said...

thanks morgan - it's good to see you back and up and running! how about flo and donal? their sites are so great.

Warren said...

Hello Morgan,
Thanks for your kind words over at Beaks.

You're always welcome here.

Esther said...

nanc, great to see you've landed a plum space in cyberspace -- doesn't get much better than here at Warren's! (If you've been here for a while, my apologies....I've fallen way behind in my blogging.)

Thank G-d your little one (not so little anymore) survived. I can understand your feelings on this.

While I'm pro-choice, I don't think I could ever get an abortion myself. I just don't feel I have the right to make that decision for anyone else. But I do think a person should make that decision as early as possible, and I'm pretty well against it past the first trimester. I understand someone being totally against it and sympathize. I just haven't reached that point. Btw, I have a nephew named Evan who is about a year younger than yours. Evans rule!

Esther said...

OK, just read most of the comments and thought, as the token pc person here, I'd take on Elmer's Brother's questions. :)

Are you for the 99.6% of abortions that are performed for the convenience of the mother?

Define convenience? Convenience for the 14 year old girl who thinks it's a good idea so that she won't end up on welfare and can finish school? For the 17 year old whose father raped her? Or for the 20-year old college student who made a mistake and didn't want it to ruin her life? Or for the mother who has 4 kids already and is losing her mind that another one would send her over the edge? Sure. I'm fine with it. Because for the cases where it's excrutiatingly important, you have to allow everything else. Otherwise, who stands as judge to say who is worthy of having one?

I will never have right answer for you all because I don't believe life begins at conception. To me, when the child can survive out of the womb, is when we have life. I mean, I realize it's a potential life....but do I think it's worth more than the mom? Feel free to stone me (at least in cyberspace), but no.

Given that some pro-death people claim that it's a religious issue I also ask them this:

Was it right for the state of California to prosecute Scott Peterson for 2 murders instead of one?


I hear ya on that one. The only reason I was okay with this was because baby Connor could have survived outside the womb (see my above reference to that).

Man, I'm just getting myself into trouble all over the place, aren't I?

nanc said...

no, esther - you're not in trouble. my feelings are that we should not play God with the things of God. children are the very essence of God.

if you find yourself pregnant with an unborn, there are plenty of people who are desirous of being parents who cannot be for one reason or another. these people want your unwanted, unborn child at any and all costs.

our kids would like for us to become a foster family to children who have no one. they beg us all the time to bring in unloved children.

if you go a step further - who are they? they're the ones so many (42+ million) think have no place in the world - the unwarranted unborn.

an argument with you would be futile and i won't go there as i know where i stand.

and, yes i know i've landed a plum space in the www - it's a darned good thing warren knew just how to beg the right way!

the merry widow said...

Good morning all and G*D bless your day!
Esther- The only thing I will say is this; My biological mother was married, but her husband was not my father, I was adopted.

tmw

Always On Watch said...

Esther,
You won't get yourself into trouble with ME! We don't agree on every point, but you're very brave to come here and to give your point of view.

In the course of my 54 years, I've known one 12-year-old who was raped and impregnated by her own brother. I simply couldn't condemn the parents for taking her to an abortionist (4-5 weeks into the pregnancy, I think). The parents also turned their oldest son over to the authorities; he came to the Lord in prison, but admitted that there was no cure for his problem. Beyond those details, I don't know any more because, in shame, this family moved and never maintained contact.

Another story...My sister-in-law was kidnapped and raped by a serial killer. When she escaped (some 3 days later), the first medical procedure was a d&c, without any pregnancy test.

I've known many girls and women who opted for abortion and many who didn't. But the ones who did opt for abortion all told me that they carried a spiritual burden over the decision, regardless of what would often be considered "justifiable circumstances." All but one, that is. She was all set to have the abortion (She had been raped by a serial rapist), but the pregnancy turned out to be a false alarm. To this day, she maintains that an abortion in the first month would not have been wrong; of course, she didn't actually have an abortion, so maybe she's mistaken.

I've known a few women who had medical abortions, one at Georgetown University, which rarely performs such procedures. In that case, carrying the baby to term would have cost the woman her fertility and very possibly her life; the baby's deformities were so extensive that the child would not have survived birth, Caesarian or vaginal--his brain was protruding from his skull! This was her first pregnancy, at the age of 38; a few years later, she had a perfectly healthy baby girl. But she still mourns the loss of that first child, on both his abortion date and on his projected birthdate.

I'll be honest here....I've never had to face the "decision." I got married quite young--you get my drift.

What I find so abhorrent about abortion is using it as birth control. Most of the abortion clinics here have since closed, but it used to be that those clinics were swinging doors for "mistake after mistake."

In sum, I don't support abortion. Having sexual intercourse always carries the risk of pregnancy, and men and women need to keep that in mind. But at the same time, I understand that the girls and women I know all faced a difficult decision. I'll never understand how it could be an easy decision, but for some that appears to be so.

I may not have explained what I want to say. Ah, well.

nanc said...

it is early, aow.

my belief is to not mess with things of God - incest, rape, and other unfortunate circumstances. those situations make the child disposable and i refuse to believe in disposable children. let the chips fall where they may.

if the sperm is smart enough to find the egg and then they together attach to the wall, they are alive together. dead things do not do that.

and good morning to everybody who happens by here - we're going camping!

nanc said...

correction - i didn't mean to say incest, rape and other unfortunate circumstances are the things of God. the baby that results from them is. i really butchered that, didn't i? y'all know what i mean and it's early...

Always On Watch said...

Nanc,
I understand what you're saying.

I guess that we might have some questions to ask in eternity, huh?

As trite as it sounds, life here on earth is not easy. I try to understand where others are coming from on this issue.

But I must say this...Late-term abortions are murder as far as I'm concerned. Partial-birth abortions are an abomination beyond belief.

I guess one of my points is that the women I knew who had abortions didn't come to snap decision. Some do that, however.

Have a great time camping! God has given us a beautiful world. Enjoy.

Elmer's Brother said...

No trouble with me either. Might I be in trouble with you?

Esther the examples of rape, incest and health of the mother you cite are all the smallest percentages of abortions that are performed. When I do ask people this question they always use rape, incest and health of the mother. Set those aside for a second (less than 1% of abortions are done for these reasons).

The 20 year old who got into "trouble" that you mentioned...

I know lots of people who would adopt that child. There are at least a half dozen families in the small church I got to who have adopted children (one family has 13 and half of them are special needs). Others are waiting for the opportunity. My wife and I help support a Crisis Pregnancy Center that helps young women make alternative decisions other than abortion, provides room and board, clothing etc. until the mother is ready. All that to say is that there are alternatives to abortions. If there is any doubt shoudn't we err on the side of life? I have never thought of a child as "ruining" your life.

nanc said...

what divides people on this issue is the belief in a higher power - the Highest Power.

people of faith would give this to God and allow Him to have His way, not mine or yours.

i'm reminded of the verse where Yeshua said it would be best if you tie a millstone around your neck for causing the smallest of these (children) to stumble.

honestly, i'm not trying to be holier than thou and elbro is not the lowliest of sinners - i am.

these decisions are not ours to make. i am firm in that.

Esther said...

nanc, you beat me to the punch. You are 100% right, to my mind, that what divides people on this is their belief in G-d. Mine...not that strong, tho I'm working on it. Hence, I don't see it as 'G-d's will' but rather, what happens from time to time when you have sex. ;)

EB, adoption is all fine and good for those who want to do the adopting but for the girls/women who don't want the pregnancy to change their lives, the 7 or so months having to be pregnant are just the thing they were trying to avoid. Personally, I have no idea how I could carry a child for 9 months and then not keep them. I truly admire those who can let go to give their child a better life.

AOW, exactly -- I don't think the majority of women make the decision lightly. Every single (and sorry, I know many) woman I know who has had one did not make the decision lightly. It was what was best for them at the time. Does that make them selfish? Maybe, maybe not. Might make them smart. I really think the ones who use it as 'birth control' are such a small number.

tmw, glad you're here. Sounds like it was an interesting journey.

the merry widow said...

Esther- I have known women who before they accepted Christ, used abortion as "backup" birth control, 2 of them were told that they would NEVER be able to have children! Both have 2 beautiful healthy children, G*D redeemed thier earlier decisions, but there were consequences! They both suffered horribly difficult pregnancies! I mean terrible suffering. The price you can pay is often more than you want to pay! The 12 yr. old, my heart goes out to her and her family, a couple in our small group in Ca. had the same thing happen to thier 14 yr. old daughter, fortunately she did not become pregnant, but the damage to the whole person is hideous. But G*D is great and more than able to heal even such a violation of the whole person!
Nanc- Enjoy your camping! Have fun, be safe and have a toasted marshmallow for me, please? Miss you!

tmw

Always On Watch said...

Nanc and TMW,
Nanc said, people of faith would give this to God and allow Him to have His way, not mine or yours.

But I do know a few Christians who've had abortions. Each and every one has said that it was a mistake to have the abortion but didn't know what else to do. Most of these cases of which I'm now speaking were cases several decades ago when having a child out of wedlock was an almost insurmountable stigma. And each and every one later said, "I've been forgiven" and went on to have beautiful babies.

EB makes the point that the examples of rape, incest and health of the mother you cite are all the smallest percentages of abortions that are performed. But Esther feels differently about those stats. In my experience, pretty limited, those who've had abortions mostly fall into those categories. But I admit that I live a sheltered existence as compared to some others.

I believe that those who have abortions choose to do so; I see cases of rape, incest, and health of the mother as different.

But I remember one uncomfortable experience....One evening, I was holding forth on abortion as murder when one of my coworkers dissolved in tears. I came to find out that she had had an abortion in college. I was shocked! I knew her as a pro-lifer, but still she had that something in her past, of which I was totally unaware. I guess that one doesn't always know a person's history. She went on to have two beautiful children with her husband, but the back-alley abortionist had done some damage and she had a terrible time carrying to term as a result of damage to her cervix. Her firstborn arrived at 6 months; he made it, but things were tough for years. My friend fought for his life every step of the way, too. Guilt? Some, but we didn't dwell on that. The docs took extra precautions for her second pregnancy--she had leveled with her husband and her docs after that first near-disaster--and carried her second into the 10th month. What a huge bruiser of a baby! And she's beautiful. All grown up now, as is the first child.

So why did she have that abortion? To avoid the shame in her strict family and to finish her college degree. Her family never knew the truth about that "vacation" she took, all of a sudden. I didn't know her at the time, but I'm willing to bet that she agonized over her decision.

In my experience, those who have had abortions think about the babies not here, especially when those women have babies. It is tragic, I think!

God teaches us about forgiveness. I try to follow the Scriptural guidelines as best I can. My views are strong, but I try not to come across as the all-knowing judge. And in saying that I am in no way judging any comments here.

Before I sign off, I also have to say that I've know girls/women who have carried a baby, then given that baby up for adoption. They have suffered too. And each one eventually tried to locate that surrendered child. Sometimes the reunions have been good, but sometimes not.

This has been an excellent and important discussion.

Elmer's Brother said...

Again setting aside the small percentage that are due to rape, incest and the life of the mother.

I understand and do believe there is forgiveness. What I don't understand is why abortion can be considered a responsible thing to do when the responsible thing to do would be to not get pregnant in the first place.

If you think no one has the right to tell you what to do with your body here is an illustration. When I wanted to have a vasectomy I had to go through a process where my wife and I had to go to counseling. I had to be at least 32 years old, I had to have at least two children (this is state law where I had this procedure done) and I had to wait a month before the procedure was performed. You know what else I had to have MY WIFE'S permission. If she said no then no vasectomy. Am I sorry there are these restrictions? No.

I don't buy it as strictly a religious argument. Most doctors agree that life begins at conception. Have you ever heard a woman say that she lost a fetus when she had a miscarriage? My wife and I have lost a child due to miscarriage. If it was just a blob why did we grieve like it was born?

Opposition to abortion stemming from one’s religious beliefs, is a very important and effective motivating factor. It, however, applies directly only to those persons who share similar religious beliefs. Medical, biologic and natural science has long since proven that this is a living human from conception. Our founding fathers, in the charter of this republic spoke clearly, stating "we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights — of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Religious belief is a powerful motivator for the individual person. But this is not merely a religious issue, it is primarily a human rights issue, a civil rights issue, and our nation and other western nations, make laws to protect civil and human rights."

The pro choice movement uses euphemisms like fetus etc because they consistently lost the argument when they used terms like baby and human being.

So what happened?

They changed the question. Unable to win debating the issue as they saw it on pro-life terms, they cleverly changed the question. They changed it from "Is abortion right or wrong"? to "Who decides, the woman or the government? We believe that the government should stay out of this very private matter. The real question here is about a woman’s right to choose." It takes only a moment to realize that this is an entirely different question. Over a period of several years, by paid advertisements, by pro-abortion leaders using the same party line, and by the enthusiastic cooperation of the liberal media, they largely succeeded in changing the terms of the debate.

In the end I feel like abortion can be an excuse to not take responsibility for your actions. I am including the fathers in this equation most of all, so please don't misunderstand me.

I hope that I have come across as respectful. For that was the way it was intended. I appreciate being able to discuss these issues among people I consider friends.

Elmer's Brother said...

Aow, I am not trying to come across as the all knowing judge either. So if I have please forgive me.

Elmer's Brother said...

Esther I so appreciate your point of view.

the merry widow said...

Knowing my own sins and failings how can I judge another? Did I judge those whom I've known have had abortions? No, not my job, but I will report truthfully on the facts and results I have seen! My own late husband, when he was a very young Christian was involved with a young lady he was engaged too. She got pregnant, he was willing to go ahead and marry her, but her mother butted in, when he tried to get a lawyer to stop the abortion, the lawyer told him point blank the judge would never take into account the father! The girl had the abortion and my husband was devastated! It weighed on him for years, it was a long time before he accepted forgiveness for himself! Or even forgave himself. Esther, the results are heartbreaking and all I want is to save someone from the grief and guilt that are the hallmark!

tmw

Esther said...

All of your comments are completely fair and heartwarming, frankly. It is a tough decision. It does weigh on a woman (or guy) when she does it. My close ones who've gone through it are saddened by it but I don't think any of them feel today that they made the wrong decision for themselves then. Most have kids now, no problems.

Maybe I said it wrong but I think the stats I meant to question are ones that think the majority of women use it as birth control. While it may seem that way, I don't know a single woman who would prefer to have an abortion to swallowing a pill a day or using any other form of contraception. But, sadly, sometimes mistakes do happen.

EB, I do agree that the media has certainly played a hand. Lord knows that most are to the left and enjoy pushing a liberal agenda and just cause I agree with part of that agenda doesn't mean I approve of media bias! :)

I totally appreciate the respectful tone everyone has been using. I truly am just trying to offer that "other" perspective for you guys and appreciate hearing yours.

Elmer's Brother said...

You're great Esther!

Always On Watch said...

EB,
Aow, I am not trying to come across as the all knowing judge either. So if I have please forgive me.

You didn't come across that way to me--but I know you. You are a Christian is takes no pride in his redemption as you believe that our Savior did it all. No room for pride there. I feel that way, just as you do.

But we can come across as judges to others who are not Christians. I have to work on that flaw myself!

Esther,
I totally appreciate the respectful tone everyone has been using.

We Christians aren't perfect. And most of us truly do not mean to hurt someone who doesn't see things our way. We don't always succeed in not hurting our brothers and sisters who are not members of the body of Christ.

So, you and I differ when it comes to faith, but you are still my friend!

the merry widow said...

Esther- It's about family! If we are in Christ, we ARE brothers and sisters! As a pastor said, don't expect the lost to act like the redeemed, they can't! The lost aren't our brothers and sisters, except as human beings, but we want them to become family! Don't forget, they are lost, we who have been shown the WAY are called to share that WAY! We can't force, but by just being Christ-like, when all hell breaks loose and we keep our heads and are calm in the midst of the storms of life, then the lost ones will see the difference and want that for themselves! As this world continues to go down the tubes our stability will become very desirable!
Good morning all and may G*D bless you with a glorious and beautiful day! With special thanks to all vets and thier families!

tmw

Always On Watch said...

TMW,
The lost aren't our brothers and sisters, except as human beings...

But that bond does count. We are to love them enough to try to bring them into our family--not through coercion, of course.

Brothers and sisters in Christ have no reason to be arrogant, because they didn't earn their way into the family. They were redeemed by the Savior, with no help from any of us.

the merry widow said...

AoW- It's just like adoption, it is a legal transaction that involves us, but is done "over your head" so to speak! You can choose, I was 18 months old so I remember, by actions but, the legal part was out of my hands! I was happy to be chosen, but the giving of the name and rights were done by another! I became a part of the family "because" of them not "inspite" of them! If you go back over what I wrote I think you will find that my heart is to have a very large "family reunion" with brothers and sisters who used to be family only in the physical sense become family in the spiritual, "Blood" sense! To me, the more the merrier!

tmw

Esther said...

Thanks you guys. I'm going to try to word this as gently as my steam-rolling self is able.

I know you mean well, but word to the wise for when you're talking to people in real life who might not know you or are familiar with Christians...calling a non-Christian "lost" is very offensive. (I first had to deal with that in college when a friend of mine, a former Jew-turned born-again Christian told another friend not to play the Ouiji board with me because I hadn't "been saved yet.") It might not make sense to you, but trust me... it is.

And I truly understand where you're coming from, so no worries here. Just giving you a little helpful hint should you do that with someone else.

I can handle it. I'm one of the chosen people after all. ;)

(PS: please realize that last line was totally said tongue-in-cheek, lol)

Elmer's Brother said...

but you are one of the chosen Esther.

the merry widow said...

Esther, I am well aware of that, especially since I was once lost! No, I do not use the terminology outside of believers! But if I cannot speak frankly about the situation, I may end up lessening the the fate of those who will go to hell if someone doesn't love them enough to tell them! If your child insists on running into traffic, do you grab them and swat thier bottoms, then hold thier hand tightly even if they fight you and scream? Or do you let them go and get injured for life or die? It is serious business, we are talking immortal souls! But you tailor the talk to the level of the audience! As for the Christian in college, as my late used to say, new believers should be locked in a closet for 6 months to keep them from scaring people off! I have walked with the L**D for 36 yrs., I have learned a lot from my mistakes and from others! Don't think we are insensitive to what you say, but as I said, among the brethren let us acknowledge the lostness around us, grieve for them, pray, minister to and love them into the family! We should have a passionate love from Christ for the lost! We as believers don't want them to stay there!

tmw

Elmer's Brother said...

Aow, I shall tread lighter. As one of my pastor's used to say I am not afraid of offending Christians.

Elmer's Brother said...

sorry finsh the job here

it's the non Christian I don't want to offend

Esther said...

tmw,

As for the Christian in college, as my late used to say, new believers should be locked in a closet for 6 months to keep them from scaring people off!

I almost spit coffee on my computer screen over this line -- LOL!!!!!!! That is hysterical. Man, I wish I had thought of that! :) And I totally get what you're saying.

EB, I forgot to thank you for saying I'm great. Thank you! You too!

the merry widow said...

Esther- You're alright and it is good to ask for clarification! The only dumb question is the one you don't ask and end up stewing over! I don't know how long you've been a Christian, doesn't matter, but if someone doesn't want to answer a question to clarify a position, watch closely, there might be a problem! So ask away, sis!

tmw

the merry widow said...

P.S.- I always got a laugh just thinking about it! It's funny but true! Oh, and EB is pretty neat too, just don't tell him I said so, I don't want his fluffy bunny tail to get any bigger!

tmw "snicker"

the merry widow said...

P.S.- I always got a laugh just thinking about it! It's funny but true! Oh, and EB is pretty neat too, just don't tell him I said so, I don't want his fluffy bunny tail to get any bigger!

tmw "snicker"

the merry widow said...

Oooops! Sorry, see I am to human. BTW Esther, my favorite saying is, Welcome to the human race, so glad you could come down and join us!

tmw

Elmer's Brother said...

tmw I heard that. I think the world of you also.

Now I am off to watch Saving Private Ryan with my 12 year old son. Hope he learns something.

Esther said...

EB, one thing your son won't learn is how to edit a film. I walked out of that movie wanting to introduce SS to an editor -- to chop at least an hour out of that film. Personally, I say watch the first 20 minutes and then stop. The rest just annoyed the heck outta me. The first 20 was something just this side of unfreakinbelievable, taking my breath away.Tom Hanks and his shaking hand should not have been enough to warrant an Oscar nom, which annoyed me to no end. :)

tmw, thanks for the kind words! :) I can't picture EB with a fluffy bunny tail though, lol.

Elmer's Brother said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Elmer's Brother said...

esther -

I hear what you're saying about the movie.

Usually we would be off to the national cemetary but there isn't one close.

the merry widow said...

EB- You my bro'!
Esther- It's a looooooooooong story, on the pimpfant thread, below! But I have pearly white teeth, I'm a shark, and I'm behind EB. Then I called him the Energizer Bunny! So the shark's teeth threaten the bunny tail, if he sits still to long! EB's the one who said Nanc and I were with the sharks, so obviously he meant to call us sharks!And he said we were to get behind him, sooooooooooo... It's his own fault!
That's also the thread that explains what EB, Nanc and I are doing on the sidebar! We ran away with Warren's blog, snicker! It's Warren's fault, he left us in the sandbox unsupervised! All in all we wrecked havoc and had a ball! Just hang around long enough and we'll get you dragged in too!

tmw
P.S.-EB, enjoy the time with your son!

the merry widow said...

Sorry Esther, wrong thread, it's the New Addition. Though some sloshed over into pimpfant!
Oy!

tmw

VerityINK said...

HI GANG! I've updated my blog friends list:

The Beak Speaks
Florian's Insens. Train.
Long Range & Nanc
Always On Watch
Elmer's Brother
Democracy Frontline
The Crank Files
Mad Zionist

If anyone doesn't want on, or I've listed you wrong, lemmee know!

MissingLink said...

Some data form OZ:

Abortion in Australia
In 1990, an estimated 23 per cent of all known pregnancies in Australia were terminated. This makes abortion one of the most common surgical procedures in the country, with around 80,000 women undergoing abortion every year.
BTW our population is ca 22 million

the merry widow said...

Whoa, ML, that's incredible! That's unsustainable, especially with such an influx of mohammadens. Is this being addressed or is it hidden under pc crappe?

tmw

Always On Watch said...

Missing Link,
That's one tragic stat!

Kelly said...

It is good to know, however, that there are people like you all out there who value human life.

nanc said...

teach me to go camping for two days.....

Freedomnow said...

Hey Nanc,

Now that we know what guns Warren carries, we are dying to know what you are packing.

Care to oblige us?

nanc said...

.357 loaded with .38 semi-wadcutters - haven't had to shoot anybody - YET!

Freedomnow said...

Awwww thats a peashooter. I would have thought that someone like you would have a howitzer or sumthing real.

nanc said...

are you trying to hang curtains, fern?

i don't pack a gun around with me - for some strange reason i've never had to - people just seem to have this sense of fear upon just seeing me. spookaaaaaayyy...

FLORIAN said...

Ok NANC.....time for a new topic no?

nanc said...

flo - perhaps you're right! perhaps not...

i wrote a new post while away this weekend, but don't know when i'll be able to post with moving and starting my job full time this week - we'll see.

i'd be willing to bet warren has something on the back burner as we speak though.

cube said...

Your post has generated lots of comments... isn't it time for a cat-related post?

Just kidding!

... don't shoot me because I love animals...

eyesallaround said...

"6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, [emphasis mine]"

That could apply to the mussies!

Before my "awakening" I thought abortion was a woman's choice, but now I've seen the light. Let's hope the Creator punishes us individually and not corporately or we are in deep sh*t!

nanc said...

okay cube - i'll try to come up with a cat related post, but you may not like it........i promise it won't be a cat scratching post......................

nanc said...

eyes - there is a poster at fpm who touched on this very subject and it was so apropos - the essence was that it is no different aborting a child than to give them up to jihad at any age.

the merry widow said...

FN- Why should Nanc carry a howitzer? Overkill and think of the collateral damage? like buildings? family and friends?
Besides with "the look" anything more could be called "cruel and unusual"! Course if Nanc's "look" is anything like my Mother's, you're in an advanced state of riger mortis(sic) immediately!
Eyes- Why do you think G*D said it? It was a warning, but as Isaiah wrote, "Woe, unto those who call evil, good and good, evil." It is not surprising that there is such a perversion of that which is good. Also, where I can't pinpoint at the moment, it is written,"And those who kill you will consider it a G*Dly deed." Sounds like mohammahdens to me! Also, G*D judges HIS own house, then the nations! We are HIS children, therefore HIS treatment and expectations are different! You treat your children differently according to age, strengths, weaknesses and ability to understand, so it is with G*D! And remember also that everything from "before" is under the "Blood"! Then it's just a matter of keeping short accounts! Praise HIM for HIS grace and mercy! Otherwise, I'm a dead duck!

tmw

Always On Watch said...

Nanc,
i wrote a new post while away this weekend, but don't know when i'll be able to post with moving and starting my job full time this week

Moving??? That's tough. Might interfere with your blogging.

nanc said...

actually, aow - we'll be about 70 miles away from our home. it is more feasible for us to be near our jobs than to commute - i detest commuting.

the merry widow said...

Nanc- Whose going to care for your critters? What job? I was paying attention, but what are you going to be doing?

I'm just nosy,tmw

nanc said...

tmw - i've been working parttime for the company my husband works for doing time (ha-ha) and payroll from my home since the fall. the owners of the company asked me several months ago if i'd come to work for them full time - i obliged and figured it a once in a lifetime deal to be able to be around my husband more than two days out of the week!

sooooo, to make a short story long - they opened a new office and i will be running it within the next two weeks or so. a/p, a/r, payroll, purchasing, etc. although i am by trade a legal secretary, this is very good money for the area.

his company pays his subsistence and it will become part of my subsistence so they rented us a home closer to the office, yet it's out in the country so we will be able to have some of our animals. we will pay a neighbor to tend to some of them during the week. we plan to come home every weekend as we love it here and could never give it up.

i plan to make the most of it and hope all works out well as we leased the house for a year - yikes! guess i'll have to become committal...or is that committed?

thanks for asking.

themerrywidow said...

Nice, but not easy! Glad you've got room for the critters! Once you have had them around, they grow on you! I'll bet "hubby-do" loves the idea of spending somemore time with his family and homecooked Nanc meals!
Hope the moving goes smoothly!

tmw

nanc said...

since he's worked away from us off and on so much at times, we don't have an entire household to move, unless you consider his as he has everything to live away from home except much furniture - he keeps lawn furniture in the house as it folds nicely and he can take it anywhere.

i am only personally attached to three of my birds, mama (a buttercup bantam), chleo (a male buttercup bantam - son of mama), and peepers (my turken i raised from birth) as they all come when i call and have personalities to boot. i also enjoy my newest fish, finster the betta. our son has a hamster named milo who is fun to have around. our hillannie dog will come with us and so will the rabbits.

f.y.i. - our little fawn didn't make it - we don't know if she got up in the middle of the night and ran into the refrigerator or what, but she was prone in front of it a few mornings ago. it wasn't meant to be. she was a joy while we had her and she actually was a good pet.

the merry widow said...

Oh, I'm so sorry, it would have been a pleasure to read about bambinanc! We have Caleb, the 80 lb. puppy-wuppy, Paca the assasin kitty and 7 fish in a 125 gal. tank! I'm letting the fish die off so I can get rid of this thing! Then I might get a bird, of course Paca might get a bird also! She is deadly to roaches and lizards! Not even a year old and she raises havoc with the wildlife. You should see her clean Caleb's ears, it is a riot. She's only about 5 lbs. and she terrifies him, he's convinced she is going to eat him!

tmw

Freedomnow said...

TMW asks why I think Nanc would be packing a howitzer and I am surprised she asked.

After all, the almighty Nanc is invisible, ummm... I mean invincible. Therefore, it is logical that she should have the biggest and baddest pea-shooter in the West.

Thats just common sense...

nanc said...

true.

Jeff Bargholz said...

Abortion is murder. Everybody knows this. The pro-infanticide (pro-choice,) crowd fights so hard to impose their view because they KNOW that abortion is a sin of selfishness.

There is NO excuse for killing a baby. Absolutely none.

Nobody knows this better than me. I once talked a Catholic Chinese girl into having an abortion. Of my child. I justified my act by noting that she was not killing a fetus--she was just scraping out a fertilized egg. (She was only a few weeks pregnant.)

My soul is damned beyond redemption. (In my heart, anyway.) I know that I'm evil.

Every day, I think about the life I extinguished. Nothing I ever do will make up for my crime. It's always there, hanging over my head. I deserve whatever happens to me after I die.

Nanc, you're a role model for guys like me. I want to be a good person, but you live the life I only try to live.

God bless your premature baby, and the healthy kid she grew into.

the merry widow said...

Jeff- There IS forgiveness! G*D knows your heart, the hardest person to get forgiveness from is YOU! Have you asked the young lady to forgive you? If you have, no matter what she said, if you asked forgiveness of G*D, you probably have it! Know that that child is safely home with the Father! If you are HIS, you will see your child again! I know my late is reunited with his child, he resisted it, but lost before he could begin to fight. I know others, men and women, who have been involved in abortion. It's a hard road, but there is also hope! Some of our deepest lessons come with scars we will always carry here, BUT we will not always carry them! Your point of sin and weakness becomes your place of ministry. Your ashes and shame are exchanged for beauty and the oil of gladness, our depression and heaviness becomes a robe of righteousness and dancing!
Before you stood for selfishness and convenience, now you stand up for the weak, helpless and those without a voice! G*D breaks us all, do you think that what happened was a surprise to HIM? HE knew before the world began what you would do, yet HE STILL caused you to be born, because you are of more use to HIM alive. Find that purpose and be comforted.
G*D bless!

tmw

Jeff Bargholz said...

Merry Widow,

thanks for what you wrote. The woman forgave me and of course God does too.

At the time I honestly believed that I wasn't doing anything wrong. I didn't kill a baby, I just had a fertilized egg scraped out. It wouldn't become a baby for quite some time. It was only years later that I realized what I had done. Preventing a child from developing is comparable to murdering it. I stopped the process that would have transformed that egg into a baby. I stole that baby's life.

The thought of that baby being with God makes me feel better. I hope it's true.

Jeff Bargholz said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Elmer's Brother said...

jeff I just wanted to echo what tmw said. There truly is forgiveness.

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